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Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
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Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I've had this thread running in a few other forums, but have been enjoying coming here more and more. I've seen where people post questions and get some really good answers. I like the sections on tutorials very much, and I like watching other builds.

This is my fourth guitar to build. I started with kits, but this time I've started doing more of the things that kits do for you. The neck is a semi-carved neck from LMI (so far all my parts are LMI except the B&S set from RC Tonewoods). I want to try a wide heel like Somogyi and some of his former apprentices do. I recently bought a side bender and am doing my own sides as well as the binding I've bought. I don't have the money or the tooling, nor am I going to build 20+ guitars in the near future, so I have to buy my wood as each guitar comes around. The fretboard came with fret slots cut and radiused, and the bridge will just be a Martin style when I get around to ordering it. Baby steps. The top came in 2 pieces naturally, from LMI, and I used a plane to thin it down. Once I got the hang of that, it was pretty fun.

At any rate, I'm going to post everything I had posted in other forums and get caught up with where I am now. If anyone has suggestions, sees any errors I'm making, or just wants to comment, please do. I'm learning and I am very receptive to constructive criticism from any source.


The back and sides are Honduran Mahogany as the title says, and I got them from RC Tonewoods & Sons. They were nice enough to thickness them for me to get them close to final dimensions. The top is from LMI and not yet thicknessed.

Having decided that I'm going to build several more guitars, I got a side bender from Blues Creek Guitars. And a friend on the kit forum donated a tower type binding setup.

The neck will probably come from LMI as one of their partially shaped necks. I don't yet feel comfortable making the scarf joint on mahogany. Over the summer I will put some pine to the test and try to gain expertise. But, I want a wide heel like I see Somogyi and Ray Kraut do, and the partially carved neck from them hits the spot. I'm very impressed with Kraut's rosette ideas and will try to emulate him to some degree. As a matter of fact, that's what's holding me up even starting with the top. I have materials coming and can't brace it until after I figure out what the rosette is going to be. Fortunately I have a leftover top from someone's Martin kit - the rosette material streaked across the top and made it worthless to me. So I can practice punching holes in it until I make a decision.

Here's one of the sides as it sits on the plan sheet from StewMac. It looks like it's out of whack with the plan because I moved it to the left and forgot to put it back. It fits!

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And here's the obligatory shot of one of the sides in the bender. I don't think I've seen a build yet without that shot. Oh, let me tell you. Bending sides in one of these is a snap. I'll leave that word in :). I had the easiest time. Previously, I had bought 4 pieces of sides from LMI to practice bending with. I used water on the first 3, two with paper around them, one without. All 3 came out pretty rippled and wavy. After consultation with people smarter than I (Tony Costa, are you listening?), I did the fourth one dry with no paper, and lower temp. It came out with a bit of waviness, but nothing that sanding won't cure. And the 2 Honduran Hog sides were pretty good.

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Here are the 2 sides in the form. This form was from KMG. I like it because I can take the cauls out and glue on the top and the back using rubber bands. I've done rubber bands for all 3 of my other guitars and really like using them.

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Here's a couple of pictures of the back set - not yet joined or profiled.

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And finally the top. I'm having a time getting a picture that shows how white this top is. there's a ton of silking as well. Since the top is .015" thick, it needs to be thinned down pretty good. I'm going to try my hand at using a plane for this after I practice on some old pine. I'll start out sanding a little to see if the reverse side of this top looks better. It's giving a hint that it might be pretty good itself.

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I've learned a number of things on the first 3 builds. When I look at each of them, I kick myself because I didn't take the time or take care of my materials. I think that anyone who is new at this like me will benefit from my mistakes. One thing I decided early was that my ego is parked at the door. If I make a mistake, I'm not afraid to admit it and tell others. If you learn from mine, it gives you ample opportunity to make your own, and I will learn from you. That's fair. :)

1. Do not rush. It's easy to get excited about a part being ready and you want to see it done, but giving in to it can be dangerous.
2. Don't say "oh, I'll fix that when it's time to finish". Fix it now. You either won't remember or it will be too late.
3. Prepare the body for a successful finish. Even on the 3rd one, I thought I'd done a good prep job. But closer inspection showed me how wrong I could be.
4. Treat the top, back, sides, neck, fretboard, etc., with care. I'd do something on the neck, then set it over on the other side of the table and then knock it into something else. I'd put the top on top of a chest, and knock it sideways into somethine else. Turn over the body, get grit or something into the top and there'd be a gash down on the lower bout. Don't even get me talking about the finishing process. Somogyi keeps a paper cover on his tops except when he absolutely has to take the cover off, or when it's all done.

My new year's resolution in June is to avoid all those bad practices and make this thing something to be happy with and proud of.

My first build was a StewMac kit and came out very over-braced. I'm just now sneaking in when I change strings and planing some of the braces. It's so tight that there's not too much bass, and it's not very loud at all. My 2nd was for my daughter. It came from a kit from Kenneth Michaels Guitars. Ken sells kits with molds (much like the one you see above) and with some other tools that a novice builder doesn't have. He also is very helpful in explaining things to you if you don't understand. I believe his site (just google his name) has a section on how to build from start to finish, but I'm not sure. He will support you from first to last. Now, my 3rd guitar partly came from a Martin kit. A married couple, both teachers, had started to build it but school came along and they didn't have time so I got it from them for a steal. It went to my son just last Sunday. I really hated letting him have it. I got the bracing pretty well shaved correctly. The bass was nice and clear, the middles and highs are there nicely too. It's louder, and sustains well when I want it.
So now I have to do as well or better on this one.
Thanks for looking,
Bob
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Here I've glued in the neck and tail block. Both were just blocks of wood from LMI, and I shaped them somewhat to conform with the guitar's profile.

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Put in all the kerfing. I used reverse kerfing just because I like the way it looks. Also, it might be a bit stronger than regular kerfing.

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And this afternoon I joined the two back pieces after "candling" them. Both my wife and I looked at the two pieces from opposite sides, and then I flipped them around and we did it again. The joint should be good. The back is sitting on a granite or marble piece (I don't know what it is actually, just that it's flat) that I got for its flatness. I then used a Clamp'n Tool Guide that I bought many years ago for the right edge. I set a short piece of wood where the two edges of the back touch and rested them on that. I then positioned another straight piece of wood at the left edge and clamped it in place. After gluing both edges, I let them try to mate, and slid the piece out of the middle so that the two back pieces went down flush with the granite. I then clamped a level over the seam. Wax paper was used to keep the glue from getting anywhere but the back.

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I'm going to let the back sit like that all night and start working on it tomorrow to get ready to brace it up.

I am lucky that Stephen Kinnaird and Ryan Middlebrook, who works in Steve's shop, both live here in the same town I do. They have helped me from day one. Whenever I have a question or problem with something I've done or want to do, they have been rock solid in supporting me. The 2nd guitar I built had fallen and the side cracked. I was a basket case. Steve looked at it, took some colored pens and made those cracks disappear. The man's a magician. I hope they're reading this because they're in for some work in the next couple of months.

Now for my first question to any and all. I want to make my back as responsive as possible. How far can I take the braces down to make that happen and not have it fall apart? I did fudge and ordered a pre-carved brace set from LMI for this, but wish I had just gone with a block of wood and done my own. The 2 upper back braces are about the same size as my X braces, and the 2 for the lower part are 1/4" high and 3/4" wide. I've been used to big braces, both tall and fat for the back. With the way they are right now, do they seem conducive to making a pretty resonant back?

Someone mentioned to me that I might be concerned with a back that responds much in that it could cancel out some of the top's resonance if their "tap tone" for want of a better term somehow clashed. What would be a good way to avoid that? I don't have any good way of measuring the note or notes that I get from tapping.

The back has been profiled more or less to shape and the pic below is of the spruce covering the center joint on the inside.

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Over the weekend, I braced the back and profiled the braces. I put tape beside the spot where the brace was to lay. At first I used some old blue tape we have here. I think it's painter's tape. It didn't come up very well (it stuck to the board and glue too much), so I switched to some of the tape I use for binding. That worked really well. Very little cleanup.

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After seeing all the squeeze out from that brace, I went with less on the next one.

Here's the back after profiling the braces.

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The top had been joined.

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And here it is after thicknessing and cutting the waste from the board.

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Ebony will be the front of the headstock and also used as binding for an ebony fretboard. There'll be a thin strip of white between the fretboar and binding. I'm hoping with gold EVO frets that it will really look nice.

After work tomorrow and thru the 4th of July weekend, I'll be designing the rosette. I still don't have a firm picture in my mind of what it will be.

Question(s) for the day: If I want to glue purfling on the binding before I bend it, what glue should I use? If CA, can anyone help with how you put it on? I'm thinking huge mess there. If it's like Titebond, will it stay together while it's getting very hot in the bender?

Thanks for looking,
Bob
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I'm going to have to pay a consulting fee to TonyinNYC if he ever gets wise to how much he's helping with this. His approach to bending the side purfling was to tape it to the binding pieces that I was to bend. DUH! Sheesh, I shoulda thunk of that in the first place. It worked perfectly.

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I was only able to bend 2 of the purfling pieces because that's all I had. There's another batch heading to East Texas. Unfortunately they're telling me it will be next Tue before they arrive. I really hate waiting. Of course it's that desire to get moving that gets me in trouble lutherie-wise, so I'll take the hint and step back.

Edit: At this point I was going to use sycamore for binding, but when I got the pieces, they didn't look different enough from the mahogany to make them attractive as binding or anything else for this one. I'm going to use them sometime later. I'm trying to edit out all references to the sycamore, but if I miss, please forgive.

I'd forgotten to install these mahogany pieces along the sides to stiffen them and help against cracking. Better late than never.

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I will be using cocobolo for bindings, the tail wedge, and the back of the headstock.

My initial idea for a rosette was to imitate some of what Ray Kraut does on his, but I don't yet have the skills to plan or execute that kind of work. So I'll just make this one a bit unique, and a compilation of other rosettes that I've seen here and there.

In cutting the channel for this b/w/b, I used a 1/32" bit from StewMac. Unfortunately these bits come 5 or 6 to the pack for not much money. Not surprisingly, it burns the wood as it goes thru, and that's scarey in that it has to be sanded off and I just pray that there's no damage showing underneath the sanding. It turned out ok, but I'm going to invest in some carbide tipped bits that not only shouldn't burn, but should leave the surface pretty crisp.

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Here are some of the pieces of Cocobolo and one piece of Ebony that will go on the rosette. I'm attaching b/w purfling around the perimeter of the Ebony in this pic. A sharp chisel makes sure the mitered joints look pretty good. To set this up, I put pins on the outside of the Ebony piece, then placed the b/w inner piece next to it, pushing pins there to hold it in. Once glued, I took out the pins for the outside of the Ebony and placed the b/w next to it and pinned that in. Just one more piece to put in. Also, the b/w imitates the binding I will do on the fret board. Since the b/w stands very proud of the Ebony, I just tacked it together with super glue. I'll install it all with LMI glue when ready to put into the rosette.

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Edit: I had some problems with getting black sawdust and other things in the area of my rosette. It made me stop using the show side of the top and I flipped it over and started again. Then I screwed up a few things with a very small plane and a scraper, and basically ruined the top. Here IIRC, I have the 2nd top getting it's rosette. Things are going better on it.

Whew! I finally got the rosette installed. It's not anywhere near what I wanted to do, but I'll have to practice on some scrap and learn more. Also, I need to get a few more bits for the Dremel.
Even though I wanted to try something different than I ended up with, I'm happy with it. I don't recall seeing one like it, so it does have some unique-ness.
While working on the rosette, I broke a very good 1/32" bit that left hardly any trace of itself except the hole. The 1/16" bit isn't as good.
At any rate, here's the rosette. The small circle is b/w/b and is about 1/32" wide. Won't be making more of these anytime soon :(.
Outside of that, flanking the sound hole are 2 pieces of cocobolo, with an ebony piece at the bottom. Prior to routing for those, I put down some of the purfling that I'll use along the top and back (maybe the back). It's black/white/bloodwood/white/black. All totaled, it's about .01" wide.
This wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done. Matter of fact, the initial top bit the dust when I tried installing this work on the reverse side. I guess 3rd time is the charm!
I put the pieces - all of them - just below the surface of the top. Since I don't have a thickness sander, I'm sanding down with a palm sander to get to where the rosette is flush. By the way, it's not done yet. I have a lot more sanding to do. Then, I'll use a plane on the reverse side to bring it down a bit faster.

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In addition to the top, I started work on the finger board. The neck I'm using is semi-carved, but is 1 3/4" wide at the nut. I am using ebony to bind the board along with some white fiber from LMI. I like the way a bound fretboard looks, and have seen Steve Kinnaird's fretboards enough to try mimicking what he sometimes does. When you do one of these, be sure, absolutely sure, of your measurements. After I measured the thickness of the binding strips and the fiber, I found that I had to make the fretboard just about .18" thinner than intended - at both ends. It wore me out trying to convert from decimal to fraction and vice versa. I made all the conversions, marked the board, then walked away. The next day, I did the same math, and checked it against what I had marked. It all lined up correctly. Another WHEW! moment.

Here's the board and pieces that I'll put together either tonite or tomorrow.

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Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Having a really good night tonight. The binding of the fretboard went particularly well (knock on wood).
I first cut the long strips of ebony, and miter cut them with miters at the end nearest the sound hole. I used 45 deg miters on the two long ones, and increased the miter for the piece going onto the end. Since the board is slanted from headstock to soundhole, another 45 wouldn't mate up as well. These came out ok.

To start, I taped the end piece onto the fretboard and let it set for 30 min or more. I then put down some tape under the fretboard to hold the long pieces once I glued the two parts together. Placed them in position, and secured one side with tape.

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A couple of minutes later, the other side got glued in.

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After letting that set for about an hour, I removed the tape, and shaved down some of the white fiber. It was standing proud of the outside strips of ebony. I am very, very, very proud of the shaving I did on those parts. You can see one very long strip that went from one end to the other on the fretboard. I should frame that, as it's the best work of chiseling in my short history of chiseling. I know that chiseling something like this is stupid easy, but I've not yet become a good chiseler. Working on it!!


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Since both the fiber and ebony bindings are taller than the fretboard, I went after it with 60 grit paper to bring them down to level. I have a wooden 8" block from StewMac that has a 16 deg radius, so I used that to bring them down. I then cut off the excess at the nut end, and sanded it all flush. Tomorrow, I'll do the bottom surface.

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Earlier today I ordered some block gold mother of pearl from Andy DePaule to put in the frets at the usual locations. Should be here by the week's end.

Part of me says I should have left the bindings tall and used my Dremel with the StewMac base to cut the inlay. But the other side of me says that I probably didn't have the two bindings perfectly placed, and that there would be some tilt to the inlay pockets.

An alternative would be to place a couple of pieces of wood right next to the fretboard and have the Dremel ride on them. The last time I did a bound fretboard, I used white MOP and just rode on the surface of the fretboard. It came out well. Does anyone have any thoughts either way on this?

I just got my fretboard inlay from Andy DePaule. I love it. The pattern he calls "More or less DePaule". Since my only previous efforts in inlay were with just rectangular blocks on my daughter's fretboard, I decided not to do the Vine of Life type inlay. But one day..........................
This style is mostly rectangular, but has a bit of flare to the top edge. The pieces are thick enough to stand the amount of sanding that will be required. They're perfect.
The picture is pretty close to the actual look, a nice rich gold color to work with the ebony of the fretboard. Having said that, they look so much better in person. I know a number of luthiers here and at other forums I frequent buy from Andy DePaule, and now I know why. They're great to work with and helpful to us new folks.

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Andy sent me a couple of files of the logo that will go on the headstock. I will use the gold mop of course.
This picture is the logo in several shells. The other picture he sent was a life size replica of the logo that I can glue to the headstock and rout from it instead of gluing the logo itself and trying to get it off without breaking it all. I'll of course wait for the real thing before I start any cutting.

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I'm glad he sent the picture with the different materials that they use, so that I can use them when the wood or the other parts of the guitar look better with something other than gold.

Here's the process I went thru on the fretboard to get it ready for routing the inlay. I put a dab (and in some cases, MORE than a dab) of CA glue in the center of and on the back of each piece, positioning them before the glue sets up. There's a decent amount of time if you're careful and don't get psyched by it. Later, I went around each piece with an exacto-knife and scored the perimeter. Using a thin razor blade, I was able to release each piece. I then rubbed some chalk over the razor scores, and that's enough to highlight it for me when I go to it with the Dremel. I had tried some old Tempura water based paint in yellow - I had got that idea from somewhere else. But it must be too old. I could not get it to show up on the board at all. I seem to remember that's what I used on my daughter's guitar, but it didn't work on this. Chalk is plenty good, and probably much easier to clean up.

Here's where it sits right now:

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I also have planed the top down to where I want it, and have glued all the braces down. Although I took several pictures, I think everyone here's seen enough pictures of bracing, so I'll save the agony for some other time and just put on the last one where the finger braces were put on and completed that step.

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In the meantime, I did a little shaving and shaping of the braces, but decided my chisels weren't sharp enough. I think someone calls it the "Scary Sharp Method" of sharpening chisels, but at any rate, I used some adhesive on the back of sheets of sandpaper from 220 grit up to 1500 grit, and layed them on my big square of marble. First I made sure that the backs of the chisels were flat, then sharpened up the whole set of Narex chisels that I bought several years ago. Just a note for anyone looking for chisels, the Narex brand are prices pretty well, and get good reviews from all my google searches. I do like them. They feel good, and they do hold an edge well. I spent the last 2 evenings getting them ready for this weekend's work. A Veritas honing guide makes it easy to get a good, accurate primary bevel. Then a turn of a wheel on the guide sets it up for a secondary bevel.

Ok, here's a question for everyone. The pieces of inlay that I'm putting in are all wide. The fretboard is radiused at 16". If I just go with the slope of the fretboard and don't use anything to keep the Dremel totally vertical, the sides of the inlay hole will be wider at the top than the bottom. So a piece laying perfectly good at the bottom will show a gap at the top on either side. Am I explaining it well? I'm thinking I need to have the router rest on something that is just as high as the center of the fretboard, so that I will rout a hole perfectly vertical. Anyway, opinions or thoughts?


Thanks for tuning in,
Bob
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
For the last several days I worked on the top bracing. Using a chisel on braces is something that is tough for me. Although I find doing it to be pretty cathartic, I'm not good at it yet. There are some places where I dug into the top's surface or into my fingers. All in all I'd rather it be my fingers, but alas. Needless to say, however, some of my DNA is on this guitar. I am getting better at the carving, but it will probably be a few more tops before I'm decent.

The top was pretty loose once I finished sanding it, a bit looser than I wanted. As a result, I've trimmed the bracing, but left them heavier than I did on my previous one. Hopefully that will counter the top's looseness. When tapping, I get a nice resonant tone all around the lower bout except where the bridge patch is. I expect that is natural because the X-braces abut the patch and it's probably the strongest part of the top below the sound hole.

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Today I cut the channels for the X-braces into the kerfing and sides. This was the best I've done regarding that. I like reverse kerfing for that if nothing else. It does look better to me, and might be stronger than regular kerfing (not sure on that point). I did have some chip-out though when I used the chisel to slightly widen the channels on one side. When I put the chipped out pieces back, I had no way of clamping other than the rubber bands that I'll secure the top with. They worked well.

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This connection of the top to the sides is the best I've done so far as well. The top layed on the sides like it had been born to do so. When I went around, I was very happy with how it seemed to sit there flush with no pressure applied. It found itself centered too. I couldn't be happier. The mold I use allows me to use rubber bands to secure the top and back, and I've done it this way for the last 3 of the 4 guitars I've made. There's a lot of clamping power in those rubber bands once you use 24 or so of them, in my opinion. I just finished that evolution about 30 min ago, and I really want to take it out of the mold later today, but will resist and let it stay until tomorrow evening.

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Thanks for looking,
Bob
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Love it. Keep the pics coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I'm enjoying your process, Bob. I'm building my 4th guitar too, and its a slope shoulder dreadnought.
Your is looking really good. I love the rosette.
Keep the pics coming!
Author:  naccoachbob [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Beth, do you have your build on the forum? I'd love to watch it proceed too. I'm a sucker for build threads.

I closed the box Monday night by gluing the back onto the sides. Had to leave it until today because I was called to testify at a preliminary hearing on a child molestation case up in New Boston, Tx. My first time ever to testify in any court proceeding. So I drove up there last night, gave my stuff today and got to come home to the complete box.

I used a flush cutting bit in my Colt laminate trimmer to get rid of the excess top material so I could turn the body over and glue up the back, using the same mold and the colorful rubber bands. Then today I trimmed the back. On my first guitar build, I made the mistake of using almost the entire length of the bit to just trim the back. Because of everything not being totally square, there was some cutting and slight indentation on the sides that shouldn't have occurred. Every time since, I've made sure to just leave enough blade to cover the plate. Thought I'd mention that for other new folks like me - let me make the mistakes for you. I'm good at it!

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I'm itching to bend the binding and the rest of the purfling, but I'm going to wait until the weekend so I can bend it and install it.
Bob
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I've not been disciplined enough to do the level of documentation yet. May do a retrospective of the last build I did, as I faithfully documented it in pictures. Looking forward to seeing your binding process!
Author:  naccoachbob [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I can't wait to see it, Beth. Please pm when you do.

Last night I finished making the inlay cavities for the fretboard, and used a good bit of ebony dust with a good bit of CA glue, and made a mess. I had to clean it up this afternoon.

Here's the before:

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And after:

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I got it down to 400 grit, sometime while the finish is sitting on the box, I will use micro mesh and see if I can make it shine better.

Bob
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
After a week of fooling around trying to decide what to do for the tail wedge, I spent last night and today working on it. I had to order a jeweler's saw to make this one, and it finally got here yesterday.

I had one piece of gold mop left over from inlaying the fretboard, and cut a 1/8" x 1" piece.

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I then cut a pocket on a small strip of ebony to receive the mop.

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I had earlier cut the tail wedge shape into some cocobolo to match the binding, and drew in the ebony/mop inlay location.

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The ebony and cocobolo were the same thickness, so I used a couple of passes around the rim of where the ebony would sit.

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A little fine tuning and they all came together. I guess I hadn't thought all the way thru this, but the coco and the ebony are both pretty dark. I'm just hoping after putting on finish that the ebony will show up well. I wanted to set the mop in the center, but if I want to put a strap on this guitar, it might have been destroyed by the hole for the pin.

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Next I applied the bwb purfling to either side of the wedge with some CA.

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Routed out the channel for the wedge, and glued it in with white glue.

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Tomorrow I hope to start routing for the binding and purfling channels. And I have a question - If I want to miter the purfling at the wedge with that of the horizontal purfling below the binding, what's the best way to go at that?

Thanks for looking.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Love the tail wedge! I think Burton's documented build had good detail on the mitering of the purfling for the end wedge. If I remember right, he routs the full depth of binding and side purfling until just shy of the tail wedge, and the remaining depth gets refined by hand up to the tail wedge. Then over the tail wedge, routs just the depth of the binding. Then you have to strip the side purfling to meet and miter to the tail wedge purfling. It's easier to explain with the pictures.
Good luck!
Author:  naccoachbob [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Thanks, Beth. That's pretty much what I've gathered from going back to other builds using that type of purfling. I'll re-visit Burton's. I read his build thread all the way thru not log ago, and he documented things very well. It's nice to have the kind of insight that he gave us.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I route the binding and purfling channels first, then install the wedge. Then I use the purfling as a guide to cut the wedge to length by hand. I'm no help at all!
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I route the binding and purfling channels first, then install the wedge. Then I use the purfling as a guide to cut the wedge to length by hand. I'm no help at all!


That makes a lot of sense, Tony! Sounds easier and more accurate.
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I have 4 pieces of cocobolo for the binding, and 4 strips of b/w/b that will be mitered at the tail wedge. I tried using b/w/b before on the side without bending them because I didn't have the equipment. That was extremely hard to do as I had to use CA glue all the way around. Now that I have the bender, it's all much easier.

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Now the bent binding and purfling sitting in the mold waiting for me to get to work.

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Now I had a chance to use the binding tower that John Parchem sent to me along with the carriage that I had built. I'm going to tell on myself now. My understanding is that the sides need to be vertical when using the tower. I used my square to check the sides, and found that there were some places that just were not straight up and down. So I had to adjust the carriage several times to get the binding cut.

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Even though I had inspected the channels thoroughly, I discovered after installing the binding that there were 2 places where the router had cut that were lower on the sides than they should have been. Part of that was because the b/w/bloodwood/w/b purfling was so wide that the router just barely sat on the top. So I went to my hand held binding jig. Somewhere in all that, I had those two places. I can take two pieces of very thin mahogany from my cutoffs and glue them in. It will be mostly, if not totally, hidden when I'm done.

This picture is the top being bound.

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And some shots after the glue dried. I very carefully went over the binding edges with a chisel to pare down where the binding and purfling were proud of the top. I'll do the back later. It'll hopefully save time when trying to flush everything up.

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Other than the two mistakes along the side (treble side), the binding/purfling is pretty well seated. Now it's just a matter of getting everything flush.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Looking really good, Bob! I was taught to use a scraper to make the bindings/purflings flush with the top and back. Less of a sphincter-factor than chisel laughing6-hehe
Author:  naccoachbob [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Thanks, Beth. Oh, don't worry, I'm going to use one tomorrow - believe it or not, Lyndon Johnson's birthday is a holiday for Texas State employees (skeleton crew), and I'm taking the day off. I intend to scrape and sand and whatever it takes. The chisel was just to get some of the high stuff. I chickened out pretty quickly.
Author:  naccoachbob [ Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Beth, thanks for reminding me about the scraper. Before you mentioned it, I had thought about either using it or a random orbit sander. But this afternoon I spent a little time scraping the binding/purfling on the back and the top. It really did the trick. The purfling is crisp looking and both it and the binding is nicely flush with the top and back. I was able to get some of the sides done, but I'll get to it tomorrow or Thursday.
I actually had a bit of fun with it. I've never really used a scraper as it's intended to be used, but have watched some YouTubes of others tuning them. Also, many people say that a finish done with a scraper really beats using sand paper. I don't know if that's true, but regardless, it was an extremely satisfying bit of time using the scraper today.
Author:  rtpipkin [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
I have to echo the comments on your binding scheme Bob. Very nice and clean!

Ray
Author:  naccoachbob [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Thanks a lot, Ray. The back was easy, using just b/w/b .02" each strand for .06". It was shipped in a circle, and went all around the guitar, with the only joint at the neck end of the back. But the top had 2 pieces of w/b of .04" overall thickness for each piece. They went all around the guitar and won't have a joint since the neck hides it.

The w/b were shipped in a circle as well, but the problem was that the black on one piece needed to face the edge of the guitar while the other black piece faced the center. The first one didn't want to bend the other way. I finally clipped it where it tried to push up and out of the rabbet. It then settled nicely.

But the bloodwood was in 32" or so pieces. And one of the pieces had broken. The bloodwood I let run from the neck joint all the way around and past the tail wedge, then put the next piece flush with it. I just didn't want joint after joint at the tail wedge. Fortunately, with my wife's help the top's purfling is really looking nice. Did I mention I'm loving that scraper? :)
Author:  naccoachbob [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Finallly some progress. For some reason, I was skittish about using Zpoxy on a guitar. I watched Todd Stock's videos on it. I know people who use it and swear by it, but I was finding it hard to pull the trigger.

But I finally got started. Here are some pics of how it stands after one coat of the Zpoxy. I am really liking how this looks. Tomorrow I need to get some bolt inserts so I can clamp the guitar down. That will make the 2nd coat much faster to complete. This stuff really does make the wood stand out so well.

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I'm skittish about spraying this as well, but unless it rains or the humidity whacks out this weekend I'll start doing that.
Bob
Author:  naccoachbob [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Last night, I took the cover off of the top. I had poster board taped on the top for several days so that no Zpoxy would get into the top. Realizing that having tape on it for a couple of days might cause problems in tear out, I used the least adhesive tape I had, and I took a hair dryer to the tape as I was very slowly pulling it off. The pictures below show the only place on the top where it tore. As soon as I saw it, I stopped, realizing that I was going against the grain. So I came back to it from the lower bout. But still some fibers have lifted, and there's some that came out.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm hesitant to sand as deep as that thing is, the top is about as thin as I want to go until I do my final sanding. I did not pull the fibers off, but I honestly don't think there is much to do to save them. Would putting LMI glue or any other glue on the location and pressing the fibers back in their original place be an option? It's frustrating after taking such good care of the top on this guitar. That was my goal anyway.

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Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Bob
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
You could glue the pieces back down, but when you do your finish sanding, you have to make sure you remove any glue that is on the surface or it will show up when you apply your finish as an ugly, off color blotch.
Those are pretty small pieces, and they are close to the edge. Glue them down with LMI white glue or Titebond and carry on. Nobody but you will ever notice the missing piece of wood. Trust me.
I had a sand through on the binding of the hurricane Sandy guitar. Before fixing it, I took it to show it off to a few people. Actually, over a dozen people saw it, played it, examined it etc. Two of the people were fellow builders. I told them there was a finish flaw on the binding in the lower bout. Nobody found it. Nobody. Even after telling them where it was, they didn't find it. To me, the flaw was the size of the grand canyon, but it was, in reality, about an eighth of an inch diameter circle. Now, I fixed it, but had I not fixed it, it probably would have continued to go unnoticed. This tear out is the same. It is earth shattering to you, but once finished, nobody will ever see it.
So glue it down and carry on.

P.S. I like the red purfling lines. Nice.
Author:  naccoachbob [ Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dreadnought Sized Build
Thanks much, Tony. It actually did go away with some razor blade scraping. One curl popped up, but as you said, it's history now. So is the glue on the top. At the time it happened, you called it, it looked huge. But this morning it has shrunk substantially!
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